DC:
A
legend that was in with Crockett briefly was Buddy
Rogers. Buddy and Ric had a brief battle of the
figure four’s in 1979. Any memories of those
two?
Tommy:
The difference in those two is that Ric would
put the figure four on work-wise, and Buddy would
put it on shoot-wise. The bigger your legs are the
less give there is.
George:
Do you talk to Steamboat often? How’s he
doing?
Tommy:
I saw him 3-4 months ago. He’ll always be my
friend, because I have so much respect for him.
His boy Ricky will probably challenge Jeff Gordon
in NASCAR eventually…I understand he’s very
good.
George:
You know Tommy, I wanted to tell you this…I
really liked when the WWE brought you in during
the 90’s for that NWA thing…I really liked
that. (Editor’s note: The WWE had a very brief
angle then where the current roster at the time
faced an invasion of sorts from “old school”
wrestlers. Tommy was brought in as the “old
school” ref)
Tommy:
It didn’t amount to anything George.
(laughs)
George:
I know. (sighs)
Tommy:
I can’t believe they let me in the ring with
my neck the way it was. (Editor’s note: Tommy
was seriously injured in the ring in 1989. This
will be detailed later in the interview)
DB:
They never gave that angle a chance. It was
over before it started.
Tommy:
That’s right, when Corny (Jim Cornette)
quit. Corny really has a mind for this business.
DC:
Before I forget, let me ask you this…being
narrow and provincial…what do you remember about
the
Richmond
,
Virginia
venues?
Tommy:
When I was in the IWA, I think we did some
tapings at the Fairgrounds. When I went to
Mid-Atlantic, they ran in the Richmond Arena a
lot. That old hot brick building…God, the heat
in there was incredible. Of course, for the big
shows, we’d go down to the Coliseum.
DB:
I also wanted to get a question in before I
forgot. While he wasn’t in Mid-Atlantic a lot, I
enjoyed Ernie Ladd’s work. I know you had
dealings with him here and in the IWA. Tell us
about # 99.
Tommy:
Ernie was a lot of fun. Then he became born
again, and then he wasn’t much fun anymore.
(laughs)
I
made a lot of trips with Ernie, and I really liked
Ernie. He was a good guy.
DC:
Okay…back to refereeing! Your style as a
referee was much different than those that
preceded you. Explain that to us?
Tommy:
I did have a very unique style, in that I was
all over the ring. Diving…having fun…getting
into it with the crowd. As I said before, in the
dressing room I was quiet, but when I hit that
ring I was completely different. I was an
entertainer.
DC:
You also had a lot of interaction with the
wrestlers, which you hardly ever saw with refs
before you.
Tommy:
Oh yes…I did. I would tell new guys that I
worked very close and would get a little pushy,
but I was just getting into things and that I
would do everything I could to help them.
After
the matches, I would ask guys if I shoved them too
much or did I do anything they didn’t like…let
me know. Because you liked to get to know guy’s
styles. Everybody has a different style.
George:
Any good road stories you can share with us? I
remember a good one you told me before about Andre
The Giant and Blackjack Mulligan.
Tommy:
Talk about huge and ultra huge…because
Mulligan was huge too. Jack told me one night they
were in the motel room drinking after the matches
and he got in one of his silly moods he got into
every so often…and said, ‘I wonder what kind
of reputation I could get if I knocked this SOB
out.’ (everybody laughs)
He
hauled off and bopped Andre, and Andre didn’t
sell it. (Tommy using his best Andre the Giant
impression) Andre said, ‘Get outta here before I
kill you.’(everybody laughs)
It
really surprised me, because a good punch by Jack
I think would have knocked Andre right out.
Jack’s hands were like meat cleavers.
I
heard sometime later that Jack and Dick Murdock
jumped Andre at the beach in
Virginia Beach
…same kind of thing. Those two guys were big and
they could overpower even Andre, and they did take
him down. But it wasn’t a fight or anything like
that.
DB:
I guess you probably hear this question a lot,
but here it comes again. Who were the easiest and
toughest wrestlers you ever worked with in the
ring?
Tommy:
The easiest guy I think I ever worked with in
terms of respect and just being a nice person was
a guy named Cowboy Bob Ellis.
Bob’s
heyday was in the 1960’s. He was kind of getting
up there in years when I worked with him in the
IWA.
Bob’s
gimmick was Bob…he was as nice a person
in-person as he was on TV. If the fans were
getting on me a little bit, he’d put his arm
around me.
DC:
Any other guys come to mind like Bob Ellis?
Tommy:
Another guy that was super-great about trying
to take care of me was a guy named Tex McKenzie. I
also worked with him in the IWA. One of the nicest
people you would ever want to meet.
There
were a lot of others. Most of the guys were good
and appreciated me, and I appreciated them.
DB:
With all the matches you had with Flair and
Steamboat, I’m assuming they were like that as
well?
Tommy:
Yes, but yet, occasionally they would get
temperamental with me every once in awhile…but
that was rare. Maybe having a bad day or
something.
DC:
Tell us a little more about Steamboat.
Tommy:
‘Steams’ was as nice a person as you’d
ever want to meet. But he was doing a lot of
bodybuilding back then and he’d go on the low-carb
diet which would make him weak because carbs are
where you get your energy.
‘Steams’
was always a moody guy. Sweetheart of a guy…but
a moody guy and a tough guy.
I
mean Steamboat was known in
St. Petersburg
,
Florida
to be one of the really tough guys in town. Buzz
Sawyer told me that, and Buzz Sawyer was a tough
guy in his own right. He said Steamboat was
legendary down there.
DB:
That’s interesting, as I don’t think many
people perceived Steamboat as being a legitimate
tough guy out of the ring. Do you have any
examples of that?
Tommy:
I remember one time, Mulligan and Steamboat
had an argument about something, and ‘Steams’
was ready to fight Mulligan. I wouldn’t say Jack
would have taken him because I don’t know.
Something
else I remember. Here we go with
Richmond
again…one time I remember we were leaving the
building in
Richmond
. There were about four really tough looking guys
sitting next to us at a red light, and one of them
flipped Steamboat the bird. Steamboat came out of
that car and went after them…and they took off
as fast as you can believe. Steamboat was the only
one that got out of our car, believe me.
(everybody laughs)
I
tell you brother, Steamboat was a man…he was a
real man.
DB:
Now, who were the toughest to work with?
Tommy:
The worst was probably Stan Hansen. Stan was
one of these guys that wore the thick glasses, and
when he took them off he couldn’t see very well.
And brother, this guy was big and strong…just
raw, brute power. He broke Bruno’s neck in
New York
with that lariat.
Stan
hurt a lot of guys. He was hard for me to work
with…we just never got along. Late in my career
though, we kind of patched things up to a degree.
But he was very difficult.
Another
guy I just hated to work with was Abdullah the
Butcher. This guy didn’t work with you at all.
He just did what he wanted to do…
George:
That’s right.
Tommy:
…I mean, he’d walk into the ring with a
gimmick the size of a telephone pole, and you have
to act like you don’t see it. That (foreign
object) thing was so big, if I had a blindfold on
I could see it.
People
kept saying, ‘he’s got that thing, he’s got
that thing.’ It got to the point that I would
say, ‘yeah, I know he has it but I can’t do
anything about it.’ (everybody laughs)
DC:
In some ways, it must have been like that
closed fist finisher of Ronnie Garvin…which was
obviously illegal. But I guess you were just asked
to ignore it.
Tommy:
Or like the Rock and Roll Express’ finishing
move was a double drop kick.
What
you do in those situations, is that you just try
to get them out of it. The count needs to be a
last resort. First you belt them, ‘hey, knock
off the punching.’ Third time you grab them by
the shoulder, ‘hey man, stop messing with
him.’ Finally, as a last resort you count. That
way he got his heat up with the
punching…you’ve shown the fans that you’re
trying to stop it. As a last resort, then you
count.
DC:
As a referee, part of your job was to make the
fans unhappy, at least some of the time. I’m
sure you had a few incidents with fans over the
years?
Tommy:
Oh God. I’ve had people spit in my face and
slap me. I was never hit from the front, they
always waited until you passed…they’re chicken
sh#@.
DC:
And in those days, there sure wasn’t much
security.
Tommy:
The promoters, and the Murnick’s ran
Richmond
, would tell the cops to take care of the
wrestlers. The cops wouldn’t think about me as a
ref. They would surround the wrestlers, the big
tough guys, but what about me…I’m the little
guy! (everybody laughs)
So
the problem with the police was because of the
promoters, but I don’t think the promoters
really meant it…they just weren’t thinking
about the refs.
Continued
in PART FIVE
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